Looking for SEO help!

[Jeremy]

What I have learned about SEO is that the it is a huge learning curve with lots of trial and error.

The problem with paying for SEO is that the best SEO's are so busy optimizing their own sites and making ridiculous money, that it wouldn't make sense for them to spend even 20 hours a week for a measly $1K a month.

In Kyle's defense, we work together on many projects and if I had to choose one person to work with the rest of my affiliate career, especially in respect to SEO, he would be the one.

Paying for SEO is just dumb though when you can partner with a good SEO or put in the time to learn it on your own.

[xpertadvice4u]

Originally Posted by Kyle

a complete seo program is going to require you opening up your pocketbook for links, but that has nothing to do with marketing, it is still SEO. Don't get the two confused.

So, buying links is really all about SEO and "has nothing to do with marketing"???

I don't think you are using the same definition of marketing that most people would use:

"Marketing...consists of the social and managerial processes by which products, services and value are exchanged..." (Wikipedia).

When you buy links as part of a program for promoting/marketing your website you cannot say "that has nothing to do with marketing." Why would you pay money for links that have nothing to do with marketing your product?

I think you are so focussed on your Elite SEO Persona that you have the tail wagging the dog. Most people don't bother doing proper SEO unless they are concerned with Marketing their website and the products on it.
There has to be some sort of return on their investment of time, trouble and money in doing the SEO.

Originally Posted by Kyle

"**** tags are not a marketing strategy. Pages titles do not affect conversion ratios. ROI has little to do with search engine optimization. Search engine optimization does not sell the product; it never has and it never will."

Oh, really?? "ROI has little to do with search engine optimization"???

Then why bother investing the time and money in doing SEO? Just because it is fun and a cool art form?

You said: "I do this 14 hours a day 6 days a week and I know what I'm talking about."

Why are you spending all this time doing something that has nothing to do with ROI? Just because you like making finely crafted websites?

Nobody in this thread said SEO "sells" the product.

The Marketing Techniques and Sales People help to "sell" the product.

SEO has a lot to do with ROI, however....the sexiest page in the world is useless unless people have ways to seek or stumble across it....and SEO enhances those ways.

Agreed...you can't just SEO a site and expect to get rich, although that is what some charlatans want you to believe.

SEO has to be considered a tool in a Marketing Strategy. If you choose to ignore it, or not use it properly, then you will not optimize your Marketing efforts, and you will not otimize your ROI.

The point remains, you are going to need SEO money for more things than just paying a Consultant - like Links - and in the end, those things are all probably going to come under the Marketing Budget, given that Websites, for most companies are a Marketing tool.

From one Business Management theory perspective, businesses have only two functions: innovation and marketing. So, everything to do with a business is about marketing, in a sense....and SEO is all about "the process by which products, services and value are exchanged."

[gooderpoker]

Originally Posted by Kyle

You know what xpertadvice4u I am sorry you don't like my tone but I'm not gonna sugar coat anything and everyone around here knows that. I know several people that could do his site but $1000 will cover the consultation only. These people don't take shortcuts and use bh techniques that will hurt you more than help you, because they have reputations to uphold and are known for continued success.

I am not at all trying to imply someone who has $1000 for their poker site is poor so dont put words in my mouth either. I'd rather give the sound advice like I have than to send him to some $1000 a site seo company in a 3rd world country and be the guy that forever messed up his poker site.

Post your site and I will give you some tips for free, and so will other people (gooderpoker).

my site is www.freepokerfind.com i am making a new home page as we speak so there will be much more content to optimize soon.
Thanks for everyones input and help.
Tips would be great thanks

[NewPokerGirl]

That banner at the top is hideous! I am bored...I will see if I can make a better one for you.

Edit- I made a nice one but I cant figure out how to put it in here so I will just give you the site I made it at. Im sure you can make something better anyway. It's all free and you dont have to make an account or anything like that.

www.cooltext.com

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by xpertadvice4u

Oh, really?? "ROI has little to do with search engine optimization"???

Then why bother investing the time and money in doing SEO? Just because it is fun and a cool art form?

You said: "I do this 14 hours a day 6 days a week and I know what I'm talking about."

Why are you spending all this time doing something that has nothing to do with ROI? Just because you like making finely crafted websites?

I didnt' say I do seo 14 hours a day, but I work on a network of sites that long a day. SEO, marketing, networking, outsourcing, etc.

When someone says "little" don't replace it with "nothing" especially when you are quoting one of the most successful web gurus in the world. (John Scott). If you want people on this forum and industry to take you seriously, drop your longest poster title and stop twisting people's word's around. That wasn't even my quote.

If I buy 1000 links on poker footer sites all over the net, that is SEO, not marketing because it isnt going to send any traffic. If I buy non-follow links in high traffic spots on top poker sites, it is for marketing. Can you see the difference? If it is a banner it might just be for branding, even if it sends little traffic. You can do very similar things for different reasons in this business.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by gooderpoker

my site is www.freepokerfind.com i am making a new home page as we speak so there will be much more content to optimize soon.
Thanks for everyones input and help.
Tips would be great thanks

Let me know when you have more content up you definitely need some tips. I would try using less seizure inducing banners too people in the poker industry seem to have banner blindness developed years ago. Text links work wonders!

[NewPokerGirl]

Ok, not sure if this will work but this is what I came up with gooder. Others here could make this look like a childs work with some chalk but its the best I could do. I put it on my site so you can just copy it from there. Hope you like.

www.smallstakestexasholdem.com/freepokerfind.htm

[xpertadvice4u]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I didnt' say I do seo 14 hours a day, but I work on a network of sites that long a day. SEO, marketing, networking, outsourcing, etc.

That was a direct quote: "...remember that I do this 14 hours a day 6 days a week and I know what I'm talking about."

If I recall, the topic was SEO, and you were representing youself as a top expert, a "real SEO" - one who knows what he is talking about because he does it 14 hours a day. I think it is very clear what you said. I neither misquoted nor misrepresented what you said - in your own words.

Originally Posted by Kyle

When someone says "little" don't replace it with "nothing" especially when you are quoting one of the most successful web gurus in the world. (John Scott). .

Actually, it is *you* that I misquoted, not John Scott.

I reproduced the quote accurately:

Originally Posted by Kyle

"ROI has little to do with search engine optimization."

And then I asked the question:

Then why bother investing the time and money in doing SEO?

...if it has so little to do with ROI?

You still have not answered that question.

And then I asked you why you spend time doing stuff that has nothing to do with ROI. But, you had actually stated that:

Originally Posted by Kyle

a complete seo program is going to require you opening up your pocketbook for links, but that has nothing to do with marketing,

(emphasis added)

So, I apologize...you are actually stating - for the record - buying links for SEO has nothing to do with Marketing.

And then, because a "Guru" has stated it - that ROI has *LITTLE* to do with SEO.


So, alright then, I'll rephrase the question: why do you spend so much time (14 hours a day) doing things that have "little" to do with ROI???

And why do you think you deserve to be paid $1,000 per week if ROI has so little to do with SEO? How could anybody afford it if it has so little impact on ROI?

Originally Posted by Kyle

If you want people on this forum and industry to take you seriously, drop your longest poster title and stop twisting people's word's around. That wasn't even my quote.,

Well, Kyle, if you want ME to take YOU seriously, you need to stop saying logically indefensible things like ROI has little to do with SEO or SEO has nothing to do with marketing.

I don't think either of those statements fits with a guy who claims to be an expert and knows what he is talking about "because he does it 14 hours a day."

Neither you, nor your Guru, seem to understand that what you call SEO is a function of Marketing. You are trying to make some artificial distinction, as if it is some sort of pursuit of excellence or whatever done for it's own intrinsic value...or whatever.

But that is what is ridiculous about this exchange so far:

You still have yet to state why the hell you bother to do SEO, if ROI has little to do with it, and it has nothing to do with Marketing, and how it could be worth $1,000 per week to a business - if what you are saying is true.

Originally Posted by Kyle

If I buy 1000 links on poker footer sites all over the net, that is SEO, not marketing because it isnt going to send any traffic. If I buy non-follow links in high traffic spots on top poker sites, it is for marketing. Can you see the difference? If it is a banner it might just be for branding, even if it sends little traffic. You can do very similar things for different reasons in this business.

(Emphasis added)

OK, Kyle...

You can do marketing tasks that have nothing to do with SEO: True.
Marketing existed before SEO was ever dreamed about.

You can do SEO tasks that have nothing to do with Marketing: False.
Nobody would pay you $1,000 per week to do SEO if it weren't for Marketing (and ROI): True.

You're trying to claim that if buying 1,000 links does not result in traffic, it is SEO and not marketing...that's just poor logic.

There is no reason to buy 1,000 links on poker footer sites - in the first place - if you are not trying to create an effect that will result in more traffic...eventually. The whole point of SEO is to increase traffic, and business. Period.

Oh, says who? stupid xpertadvice4u?

No, Kyle....Read THIS:

Search engine optimization (SEO), a subset of search engine marketing, is the process of improving the volume and quality of traffic to a web site from search engines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine_optimization

Hmmm...didn't you just say that buying 1,000 "footer-site" links is SEO - not marketing - because it is NOT going to send any traffic?

But Wikipedia seems to think that the definition of SEO is the process of improving traffic, and that it is a subset of marketing...I guess they are not worth $1,000 per week.

I didn't misquote you, and I am not twisting your words.

Seeing as you like quotes:

"Because the purpose of business is to create a customer, the business enterprise has two--and only two--basic functions: marketing and innovation.... Marketing is the distinguishing, unique function of the business."

, Peter Drucker , The Practice of Management, quoted in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing

You evidently refuse to admit it, but the only reason anybody would pay you the $1,000 per week you claim you deserve is because it would help to create customers.

And the reason for creating customers is to increase ROI.

You do SEO to improve Marketing.
You do Marketing to improve ROI.
You do SEO to improve ROI.

That is LOGIC.

Now stop being obtuse, please.
And stop being snotty and condescending when people ask for help:

Originally Posted by Kyle

If you really need me to explain why...

It's very unCanadian.

[edmc]

Ok since I started this, I think there was a misunderstanding from the offset.I had previously looked at gooderpokers site so had a rough idea of what he was looking for.

I understand Kyles angle on SEO but with talking to gooderpoker I realised that a complete SEO overhaul was not what he was looking for.

Anyone can change or add a page title - That is considered SEO ie optimising the page for the search engines.

As a gooderpoker is relatively new to SEO & Kyle has been doing it for a while I guessed they were talking on a different wavelength and the quote of $1000 a week was well off the mark. I reckoned a little guidance is what he was lookin for.

Everyone here who has tried their hand at SEO has made mistakes along the way eg buiding a new site just to realise that they have not taken advantage of naming subpages after keywords.

Sure reading up on SEO helps enormously and I think everyone who cannot afford a decent SEO strategist should do it, but anyone who has thrown up a site only to realise down the line that their SEO needs a lot of work, much of which could have been avoided from the offset if they had that little extra bit of planning.

Looking at SEO for the 1st time looks daunting to most & if you dont beleive me just look at the early threads in SEO forum. So although $1000 in total isnt going to compete with the likes of pokerlistings I still think it can be used to save valuable time.

The reasons for people to outsource is that they want to save time or they cannot do a good job themselves.

To put in its simplist form, if someone pays $1 for someone to add a nice page title and as a result it moves up the rankings & gets more hits, thats good SEO & good outsourcing. My point being is that $$$$$ is relative and whether the wording of the request was misunderstood, small scale SEO still has its place.

Well thats me done for the w/end. Giving PC a rest & im away to optimise my beer drinking (OBD)

[Kyle]

I never have or will do SEO on a site unless I am cut in equally with lifetime profits, I was originally posting here looking into something for partners who gives me cuts for bringing them clients.

I am not even going to reply to your incoherent post, mostly because I saw this ending it:

It's very unCanadian.

You want to talk logic? Then try not embarrasing yourself with a post full of informal fallacies not the least of which an ad hominem. I'm sure you will reply again but I make a living online and I'm going back to work - and am unsubscribing from this thread.