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First and foremost I thank all of you high limit and professional online players for coming by to voice your opinions. This is a very important aspect of this discussion and your input is extremely valuable.
I think that you guys SHOULD be getting some sort of perks or rewards considering how much you are putting into the filthy rake every month. However I feel that these perks, rewards, or maybe even rakeback would be better facilitated by a representative of the individual poker sites versus third party affiliates.
I have a very simple suggesstion for any of you Party executives reading this. With the introduction of your higher limit games (100-200) and now your dropping of the skins it is obvious you are already have and will start attracting even more of these professional players who are contributing massive amounts to the monthly rake.
With that said, being the largest poker room in the world both online or offline you should follow the same suit that the folks in Vegas do and hire a few really good VIP Hosts. These hosts could work out special deals with your high limit players and "take care" of these people on a personal level. In turn this would drive more of these players to your site and give you better player retention. The right VIP Host could also help recruit new high limit or full-time players to the site as well.
If I were a shareholder with PartyGaming I would be all for establishing some sort of VIP Host program as this would certainly show positive results to the bottom line, build good rapport among high limit players, and eliminate the need for these players to seek deals or perks through third party affiliates. There's my free consulting for the day.
Originally posted by Jeremy@Oct 12 2005, 10:37 AM I feel that these perks, rewards, or maybe even rakeback would be better facilitated by a representative of the individual poker sites versus third party affiliates.
This is a red herring. Money doesn't come from thin air. To compensate high volume players, either Party pays (and the money comes from Party's bottom line), or the money comes from the rakeback given to the affiliates.
Party will not, and should not, expect to pay players from its bottom line. Affiliates (particularly low-touch affiliates like Cardplayer Cruises) should pay. I generate thousands in MGR each month.
I dont care how much you affiliates spend in marketing costs, there is no reason you should be permitted to capture all of the revenue that I generate. Smart players will and do demand a cut.
Unless Party disables individual tracking, we will constantly find a way to get rakeback. And if Party disables individual tracking, we will reconsider whether to send our money to another site entirely.
My gut instinct says that affiliate rake should be capped at $500 or $1000 per player. After that, the rakeback should go to the player. This more than fairly compensates you for your customer acquisition costs.
Originally posted by High Volume Player@Oct 12 2005, 02:14 PM I dont care how much you affiliates spend in marketing costs, there is no reason you should be permitted to capture all of the revenue that I generate.
Then sign up without going through an affiliate. Maybe it will make you feel better knowing that Party Poker and not an affiliate is getting all of your rake revenue.
Try getting rake back at Pokerstars and Brick and Mortar casinos. Why do you think it is a right to get some of your rake back? You guys got used to something that was never approved by Party Poker. Blame the affiliates you signed under for making promises they could not keep. These are the same affiliates making more promises (Party rakeback) that most likely they will be unable to keep.
A lot of these high volume players are not even winning players. They are making their living from the 2500-3500/month in rake they are getting back from their affiliate. Just my opinion.
Originally posted by High Volume Player@Oct 12 2005, 12:14 PM
This is a red herring. Money doesn't come from thin air. To compensate high volume players, either Party pays (and the money comes from Party's bottom line), or the money comes from the rakeback given to the affiliates.
Party will not, and should not, expect to pay players from its bottom line. Affiliates (particularly low-touch affiliates like Cardplayer Cruises) should pay. I generate thousands in MGR each month.
Think again about that statement.
The money is coming out of Party Pokers’ "bottom line" regardless. The player is compensated directly from Party from rake that a player has already generated, OR they are compensated by an affiliate who is paid directly from rake a player has already generated.
BUT the money comes from one place...Party. That is why it’s commonly referred to as RAKE BACK.
The issue COULD be how much comes out of the bottom line, but think about this…
Would you want to keep the current "method" or convert to a system in which it is managed internally by party?
Where do you think YOU would get paid more?
The fact that you are "bothered" by an affiliate generating consistent residual profit from YOUR play could be clouding your logic.
From what I understand of what is offered to big MGR producers from the rake back affiliates (I am NOT one) I think you should focus on getting party to allow AFFILIATES to do rake back. I don’t think you are going to get a better deal directly from party.
Perhaps you would...but I am not so sure.
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RakeKiller... its your money, get some back Poker Rakeback Calculator
--"This is a red herring. Money doesn't come from thin air. To compensate high volume players, either Party pays (and the money comes from Party's bottom line), or the money comes from the rakeback given to the affiliates."--
Red herring? It is basic business that has been going on in the casino industry for decades, and the online poker industry at least for five years.
--"Party will not, and should not, expect to pay players from its bottom line. "--
I don't see how this makes sense. Party pays regardless, but where do you get the idea that a company itself will not and should not be responsible for cusomer retention??? Party will do this. Party does it all the time.
Frankly I don't think you can be a regular, top online player and not know that perks and deals are offered regularly by the cardrooms, but more to the point, this is the cardrooms responsibility.
--"Affiliates (particularly low-touch affiliates like Cardplayer Cruises) should pay. I generate thousands in MGR each month."--
Sorry, but the idea that ESPN should be paying rakeback to players who signed up after watching a commercial is not sensible. Party acquires players via various means. What difference does this make? Why is it someone else's responsibility to do anything because you signed up via a commercial, a banner, a free deposit from a friend, or any other way?
--"Unless Party disables individual tracking, we will constantly find a way to get rakeback."--
Cheats will always exist of course, and they will prey on naive and uniformed players, but rakeback at Party is trivial now and will continue to be since no big time affiliate, and few middle level ones, will risk losing their entire account by being cheats, even if they are unscrupulous enough to lie to players and try to cheat the cardroom.
--"My gut instinct says that affiliate rake should be capped at $500 or $1000 per player. After that, the rakeback should go to the player. This more than fairly compensates you for your customer acquisition costs."--
These concepts are entirely unrelated. Does your gut instinct tell you that Party should cap its ESPN spending at $1 million and instead take another three million and give it as rakeback to players?
Cardrooms are responsible for paying for marketing to attract players. The biggest cardrooms, including Party, have chosen to be responsible for their own player retention programs. This is the only thing that makes real sense. We may need and see better and more aggressive loyalty programs from the cardrooms now/soon, but that is where the responsibility for any of this rests.
What a great discussion. It is actually very valuable to hear both sides of this story both from the players side of view as well as the affiliates. I think without question this is one of the best dicussions on the internet right now regarding the Party Poker Rake Back issue.
Thank-you to both the players as well as the affiliates for keeping this such a great discussion without all the random name calling and and bashing that you see on many other forums..
So far everything has remained extremely professional but it if it gets out of hand I have employed a ring girl to walk the forum between rounds :P
Originally posted by richardb@Oct 12 2005, 02:50 PM Try getting rake back at Pokerstars and Brick and Mortar casinos.
I’d like to point out that brick and mortar casinos have astronomical overhead compared to a virtual site like Party. They do not make much money at all on poker. They have to pay floor supervisors, dealers, chip runners, cashiers, etc. Additionally, the poker rooms take up a large amount of square footage, and the yield from the rake is not that high compared what they could make if they filled it with a bank of slot machines. They have the poker rooms as an amenity, because many of the high rollers will go drop hundreds of thousands of dollars in the sports book or craps tables.
Having said that, the rake on Party (which has increased three times over the past two years) is already as high as a lot of B&M casinos. This is absurd when you consider that it’s a virtual table, with no employees, cranking out twice as many hands per hour as a B&M dealer. Party is raping the players on the rake, so don’t try and compare this situation with a B&M casino.
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