Legal view - Cardplayer.com

[stillshadow]

I'm not going to voluntarily break a black-and-white law, but what is legal and illegal about third-party payment services and promoting online poker has yet to be determined. If the US government blatantly tells me that I'm going to jail if I don't shut down my sites what do you think that I'm going to do?

The CardPlayer article wasn't trying to say that nothing has changed in the marketplace as you say, just that the legal status of online gaming remains unaffected by this new law. The DOJ and AG has said that online gaming is illegal for ages now and this new law doesn't change or confirm that according to this article.

As even the politicians have been citing the limited reach of the Wire Act as it pertains only to sportsbook affiliates, do you think that the Feds will go after a US sportsbook referral site first or one strictly about online poker? If the US government intends to go after affiliates I don't see why there haven't been arrests for a decade of online gaming.

I'm going to try to stay out of this issue as much as possible and let the dust settle. I probably shouldn't have posted as much as I have. My intent isn't to step on toes, create controversy, or call anyone else wrong... just to give my own .02 as an experienced affiliate.

Edit: BTW, where is CardPlayer and CardPlayer.com based out of? Here is another page encouraging US players to beat the legislation and directly linking to defiant poker sites: xhttp://www.cardplayer.com/poker_news/news_story/1444?class=PokerNews . I post this because as far as I know they are a US company, which would mean that here is a domestic biggie still finding ways to promote directly to US players. Of course, business decisions shouldn't be made on the basis of monkey-see-monkey-do, but it helps to see a non-Lithuanian website doing this.

[Georgia Poker]

Originally Posted by Brandon

Great points PPP and J

My question is this then PPP, been meaning to ask...what are you going to do with your sites?

PPP doesn't own any websites....

[PPP]

I thought I did...

I'm not sure how to answer Brandon's question though. I'm going to continue to run my business, which was always based on the idea this law would pass at some point, but I haven't figured out everything I will do now that it has.

[Brandon]

Gotcha, just wanted to see what you had planned. Up in the air like all of us.

[Georgia Poker]

Originally Posted by PPP

I thought I did...

I'm not sure how to answer Brandon's question though. I'm going to continue to run my business, which was always based on the idea this law would pass at some point, but I haven't figured out everything I will do now that it has.

Bah - Just a somewhat blatant attempt to get you say "What are you talking about? I own abc.com, def.com, etc."

[Brandon]

most likely...that's why I keep am open ear to him at all times ...

[Beanie]

A couple of points in this thread I think are interesting. Cardplayer and Allyn jaffrey Shulman are severely biased on this point. I love what she is saying and it certainly is calming people down which may be a good thing.

Now for the big question, how calm will people be on the 14th when someone high profile gets thrown into jail? IMO the DOJ is lining up people in its sights to scare people (typical Republican technique, notice how we are currently at fear level Orange as we are nearing elections). I hope I am wrong but it just makes sense. I really think people will freak at this point.

Certainly many things are "gray", owning or being associated with an online site doesn't appear that gray really.

If that does indeed happen what a sad day that will be. I can speak for myself and what I am going to do, I am going to be very strict and limit my advertising to non US markets. There is no point in me rocking the boat, if they say its illegal I am going to obey the law. That is all I will say on this point (please don't ask me anything regarding my business, my statement should be crystal clear on my intentions).

[[email protected]]

There's been a few people say 'well what about party poker etc?". You have to understand that all of the poker rooms & casinos to say they will be refusing US players are publicly listed (or I know of one private group that have made the decision due to US links). When you are listed it is a whole different kettle of fish as you have to worry about what investors will think and analysts will write. If there is a grey area surrounding the legality of your business the shares will not be worth squat. And if directors of a publicly listed company are found to be personally responsible for the bad decisions that led to every investor losing all of their cash, then they can be found legally liable. Public companies MUST protect their share value at all costs, and they have decided that pulling out of the US market for now is the only way they can try and do that right now.

It is very different for privately owned poker rooms. We are not governed by US law and have no public shareholders to answer to. We believe that what we do is legal, as do the governments of the countries where we operate. The USA has not made it illegal for players to play, so why should we not let them play? Has any one of us ever heard a word from the US government - no. Instead they get religious types to sit on their committees to evauluate the industry, not anyone that actually has a clue about how it works or the people involved. It's like asking a potato farmer for advice on how to perform brain surgery... The USA is free to legislate whatever they like, but it doesn't mean the rest of the world has to agree with them or follow their guidelines. The WTO has already told the USA that it is not up to them to regulate the internet and that they are in violation of international trade guidelines. History has shown that one government does not and should not have the power to govern the world.

The law is ridiculous. The way in which it came about is ridiculous and deceptive. And no doubt the way it is enforced will be ridiculous and ineffective. I'm confident it won't last too long and it could even be a ploy to allow the republicans to say 'we tried' at a later date when the industry is regulated and companies like Harrahs, MGM, Sands, Trump etc enter the market in a big way and start to fund the electoral campaign coffers.

As it stands now we are thinking that there probably won't be a great deal of change with the financial systems. The banks have already said they won't be encoding the ACH system, so they won't be monitoring checks and wire transfers. They will be monitoring credit cards, but this already happens, so big deal!

I need to get the final word on how ISPs and affiliates are going to be affected. As soon as I can speak with any confidence I will be here letting you guys know.

I'm confident affiliates will be okay with a few small changes to the way they operate. It will not be illegal for you to advertise gaming sites - you will doing it for the European markets still won't you? ISP blocking is a potential worry at this stage, but we will just have to wait and see what happens.

At Poker.com we have seen a lot of people withdrawing any excess funds from their accounts simply because they are scared of what is going to happen and that they may not be able to get their cash. (this of course is not an issue at all - players will ALWAYS have access to their funds). But on the flipside we have also experienced a record number of new signups in the past few days, so there's also a lot of players that couldn't care less and are looking for new rooms to play!

It's our job as affiliates to keep the players informed of what is happening at the rooms your promote, and what the laws will mean to them. It's your responsibility as an individual to make sure you are operating within the law in the territory where you reside. I'm not going to encourage affiliates to break the laws of their country, but I do encourage everyone to know EXACTLY what those laws are, and how you can operate within them.

All I will say for now is that free speech is still a constitutional right in the USA. Some lawyers argue that because of this right the USA is one of the few countries in the world where advertising what you please is also a consitutional right. This law is far from being an industry killer, so lets just sit tight for now and wait to see what happens and wait to see what REAL advice comes to light. I know I will not be recommending anything to affiliates yet, apart from saying that if you have good sites on servers in the US, find a Canadian or European web host, put a disclaimer on your site saying all players should obey the laws of their country and maybe explore the tax & peripheral benefits of having your own foreign company. (I think I read on a website somewhere that these companies can be set up for $xx and are a great way to protect your assests...)

There's no reason to celebrate, but there's sure as hell no reason to panic yet either. Don't let tyrannical politicians dictate to you. Stand up for what you believe is a legitimate entertainment industry and help your great nation evolve by making your opinon heard.

[Beanie]

I can speak to ISp's they tried to include language like that and got shot down. Also, if ISP's aren't asked to ban child pornography you would have to think internet gaming is relatively safe. Also, if they did bigger entities would be involved based on free speech. If they were to lose that it would be devastating to the little law they have at the moment.